2012-04-18 (TV2): Breivik Trial: Day 03: Breivik Testimony: Ideology & Knights Templar
Oslo District Court: #: 11-188627 MED-05 | 18 April 2012 | Breivik Report/TV2.NO
9:54 Engh quote further from the police interrogation, which Breivik says KT network searched extremely talented people.
9:54 Breivik compendium called a terrorist school.
9:55 Breivik: - All you can basically do what I did 22 July. Ie, not all women. Maybe 1 in 10 women. You have to have backbone.
9:55 Breivik: - Statistically, it is more likely that men do. The training does not have to be very talented. I am not more gifted than others.
9:56 Breivik: - With the will and good attitudes can all do everything. Not my job to consider if I'm talented or not.
9:57 Breivik - I express myself in casual manifesto. It was a draft ...
[..]
15:37 Larsen: - Has your plan been successful?
15:38 Breivik: - It is tragic that you have to carry something so horrible to be heard and to change society. That one will be censored and ridiculed. In one way it is cruel, on the other hand, it was necessary.
15:39 Breivik: - I had started a witch hunt for moderate conservative culture. It will contribute to increased polarization and radicalization. Better results than expected.
Anders Breivik Court Transcript 2012-04-18: Day 3
8:57 Breivik's defense team has entered the courtroom 250
8:59 Breivik is brought in.
9:00 Breivik gives the Knights Templar clenched fist salute.
9:00 The court is set.
9:02 Attorney Holden: - We are well on track. This period we are in now is one of the few areas where the prosecution and the defendant disagree. We will therefore devote the day to this period, from 2001 to 2006.
9:03 - Tomorrow we will talk about the period from 2006 to its ministries. On Friday we will talk about Utøya.
9:03 Anders Breivik Behring has brought several papers to the witness stand.
9:04 Prosecutors Inga Bejer Engh should continue questioning. She will pick up where they left off, in the period around 2001.
9:05 Engh: - I asked you several times yesterday if it was events in Norway and abroad that have influenced you. As you mentioned the Serbia conflict.
9:08 Breivik: - It was the straw, yes.
9:08 Engh: - Did you try to get in touch with people in Norway first?
9:09 Breivik: - I have been worried about getting in touch with people who are on PST's list.
9:10 Breivik: - But it was a coincidence that I came in contact with a specific person. I was on a website, and came into contact with this person.
9:10 Breivik looking directly at the prosecutor as he explains himself. He looks away as he thinks.
9:11 Breivik - I know a little bit for the environment in Norway .. I was probably a bit skeptical of this environment, because they were monitored. I did not want to end up on any list itself.
9:12 Breivik: - I do not want to say something about how I came into contact with one person, but it happened in 2001. It was the basis that I went to Liberia and London.
9:12 Breivik: - I came in contact with a person, and that was how it started. It was on the internet, but I do not want to say anything more about it.
9:13 Breivik: - I came in contact with the first one, and more. in London, I had a meeting with three others. It has been very limited contact.
9:14 The defendant refers constantly to police interrogations. The prosecutor points out that the court has not seen these interrogations.
9:14 Breivik: - I'm worried about telling too much about this.
9:15 Breivik: - I would visit a Serb in Liberia.
9:15 Breivik refuses to say the name of the Serb he has met in Liberia.
9:16 Breivik: - He was a militant nationalist. Have had sought so-called war crimes. He fought against the Muslims in his country.
9:16 Breivik clearly holds back, and will not tell much about the Serb he met in Liberia.
9:17 Breivik: - I have not said that it was this person I got to know online, but I went there to see him. But there is a connection.
9:17 Breivik: - The person I got to know online, was one of those I met in London.
9:18 Breivik: - I came in contact with the Serb in Liberia through the person I later met in London.
9:18 Breivik: - I do not want to provide information that could lead to arrests. I wrote too much in the compendium, and regret it.
9:19 Breivik - I was worried about having contact with Serb because he was wanted. I should perhaps have taken more reservations. It was a big risk.
9:20 Breivik: - But I took that chance when I met him. I knew he was wanted.
9:20 Breivik after taking the witness stand has had a serious facial expression, but occasionally smiles when he explains about the meeting with the Serb.
9:21 Breivik - I was young at this time. They took both his subject too. They would perhaps eliminate the possibility that I was just a curious person and wanted to make sure that I was dedicated.
9:23 Breivik: - I lived in public with friends at Marie Street in Majorstua and was 23 years and worked in the SNT.
9:26 Prosecutors have picked out some aspects of the compendium, which he shall be asked about. They are from part three.
9:28 Engh refers to Breivik's text, where it appears that some of the network were negative to invite him.
9:29 Breivik: - They did a background check. It was to find out if I was "flagged" if I had been in the right-wing organizations. I do not know how to check this.
9:30 Breivik: - I probably would have been uninteresting for them, if I was the flag.
9:30 Breivik: - It is written, pompous, but it's true what I write here.
9:33 Engh: - How did you feel when they chose you?
9:34 Breivik: - This is a magnificent version of what happened .. But I will not say anything more about this process.
9:35 Breivik: - I do not want to say anything more about what kind of training this was. But there were issues around the revolutionary activities. Rhetorical strategies, propaganda and bomb-making.
9:37 Breivik is short and terse in several of the questions surrounding his stay in Liberia.
9:37 Prosecutors will now confront Breivik with what he has responded to police questioning.
9:40 Engh cites police interrogation: - The known accused CV before he went to Liberia. Says manipulation and sales, as well as rhetoric was his strength. Made his first million before he turned 24.
9:42 Breivik questions about the prosecutor's questioning. Saying that the prosecutor will then doubt that CS network exists.
9:42 Breivik - I hope you can put less emphasis on ridicule, and more to the point.
9:43 Breivik: - The police have picked out the pages I am at least satisfied with the manifest. Can you focus more on the case and less in person?
9:43 Brevik swallowing repeatedly, given look out and make a note when the prosecutor reads out of the hearing.
9:44 Breivik: - One can indirectly say that I sold myself to the Serb. You would make the right impression. But it is ridiculous written in the compendium. It has not been through editing, and must be viewed as a draft.
9:45 Holden: - Have not read through the compendium?
9:45 Breivik: - Not everything has been edited, but something.
9:45 Breivik: - The ones I met had access to my CV, but the important thing for them was that I had no criminal past.
9:46 Engh: - Asked the you some questions about your political involvement in the FPU and the Progress Party?
9:46 Breivik: - I will not say.
9:47 Breivik criticizes the prosecutor's questions. You mean they are irrelevant.
9:49 Breivik claims that the police would ridicule his background, including by dragging out that he had told the network that he had been a trustee of the class in elementary school.
9:49 Breivik: - You can just skip the next two hours. I know what's coming.
9:50 Breivik - I know you are going to delegitimere me, and cast doubt on my statement. But we may well jump to the conclusion.
9:51 Breivik: - What surprises me is that I have already said that I am worried for my 8000 facebook contacts. But you have not bothered you about them, or questioned the contacts from Serbia.
9:51 Breivik: - I understand what you are trying to do.
9:52 Engh: - What you and I believe this is uninteresting. It is the judges who decide. It is right that determines how the network works.
9:52 Breivik: - It is for information to all others ..
9:52 Engh: - What kind of features was important in your contacts?
9:53 Breivik: - I will not say anything about this.
9:54 Engh quote further from the police interrogation, which Breivik says KT network searched extremely talented people.
9:54 Breivik compendium called a terrorist school.
9:55 Breivik: - All you can basically do what I did 22 July. Ie, not all women. Maybe 1 in 10 women. You have to have backbone.
9:55 Breivik: - Statistically, it is more likely that men do. The training does not have to be very talented. I am not more gifted than others.
9:56 Breivik: - With the will and good attitudes can all do everything. Not my job to consider if I'm talented or not.
9:57 Breivik - I express myself in casual manifesto. It was a draft ...
9:57 Engh: - But now I am reading from the interrogation?
9:57 Breivik: - Yes, but it is 1100 pages questioning. I was tired ..
9:58 From 17 April to 3 May 2002 Breivik abroad, and says that he was in Liberia and London in this period.
9:59 Breivik smile when the prosecutor confirmed that he had been in Liberia. Points out that it goes against what it says in the report of the first experts.
9:59 Breivik: - Liberia was in the civil war then. It was the cowboy states .. It was very extreme. The capital was full of refugees, and people were starving.
9:59 Breivik: - Liberia is the biggest hole I've been in.
10:00 Breivik receives many questions about the trip, but can not tell which way he went. The only thing he is sure is that he visited London and the country of Kenya.
10:01 Breivik: - Had to have a visa to Libri. I do not got it in advance. They are so corrupt that they got it by paying a little bit.
10:02 Breivik took out about 50,000 kroner in cash (euros) before he left.
10:03 Breivik says he does not want to answer certain questions because there may be information that can help arrest.
10:03 Breivik: - I will not say more about Liberia.
10:04 The court administrator encourages Breivik to answer questions. Says it will save you time.
10:04 Breivik: - I do not have a complete overview of what I have said in the interview.
10:05 Brievik now refused flatly to say more about this journey, and the prosecutor Engh will read from the interrogations.
10:06 From the interview: - Was concerned before leaving. Would therefore have a "lifeline" and the network if he was supposed to meet not proved to be the way he thought.
10:06 He sought thus protection from other sources during his stay in Liberia.
10:06 Breivik see clearly uncomfortable when the prosecutor read from the police interrogation.
10:07 The court administrator informs Breivik that if he does not answer the questions can be used against him.
10:08 Engh: - I just want you to answer me, Breivik.
10:08 Breivik ask the prosecutor to have the quotes ready to save court time.
10:09 From the interview: - Had two to three bodyguards. You could share livvaker if you went with someone. Will not say how he came into contact with them.
10:10 Refuse to answer more questions about Liberia, but said he had two different stories. - One was that I was working for the UN and UNICEF in the country.
10:10 Breivik: - I said I had a bleeding heart. But they did not care.
10:11 Breivik: - The second story was that I was going to buy "blood diamonds".
10:11 Breivik - I had been with Unicef ??in Oslo and took brochures.
10:12 Breivik: - The story of the diamonds I had gone to purchase a magnifying glass, and also bought other things.
10:12 Breivik: - I had promised I would meet the person to not say what to do there. Therefore it was important to have cover stories.
10:13 Breivik: - I said to the authorities down there that I would work for UNICEF, while the diamond story was used to bodyguards and my friends in Norway.
10:13 Breivik seems eager as he explains about the stories he used tires in Liberia.
10:14 Breivik: - My friends would never have thought that I would work for Unicef.
10:16 Breivik - I evaluated several cover stories, but it was so special that I should just go to Liberia. If one is making a cover story, it is important that it is as close to reality as possible.
10:16 Breivik: - I am not a person is lying. If only lied when I said I was a farmer and when I was in Liberia. I do not like to lie.
10:17 Holden comes with one last question before the break.
10:18 Prosecutors Svein Holden in an almost comradely tone Breivik before he asks: - Now, sitting to hear it and Engh, y'know.
10:18 Holden: - How can it be a coincidence that you are going to go to Serbia and Liberia and meets a wanted war criminal.
10:18 Breivik: - I will not say anything about this.
10:18 Holden: - How could they check you?
10:19 Breivik: - They checked that I had a criminal background, but I will not say anything more about this. But as I wrote in the manifesto, there is a lot of confidence. I was a trustworthy person.
10:20 Breivik - I've said a lot about this in advance, and will not say anything more about this.
10:20 Breivik seems to have a more relaxed tone of the answers he gives Holden prosecutor than the prosecutor Engh.
10:20 Breivik: - I assume they did Internet searches .. as checking judges ..
10:21 Breivik grinning when he says the last point.
10:21 Right now break until 1040.
10:43 Breivik is now brought back to court. He has a conversation with one of his defenders.
10:44 Breivik look seriously into the conversation. Twiddling their thumbs.
10:45 Breivik has taken the witness stand. Court judges come in and set right again.
10:48 Breivik says it is not his job to inform the case and that he will not provide information that could lead to the arrests of others.
10:49 Engh: - You said you had bought some purchases to build up the tire story.
10:50 Breivik: - Yes, I bought some diamond effects. But I do not want to say anything about it, but can possibly comment on your input in your delegitimeringsprosess.
10:50 Breivik: - I do not want to make this easier for you.
10:51 Breivik: - I will not comment on Liberia or London.
10:51 Engh: - In the interview, you said that you were there for 2-3 weeks. Is that right?
10:51 Breivik: - Yes.
10:52 Engh cites police interrogation, which Breivik explained about tests in Norway and Liberia. These tests were done before the meeting in London. - Is this true?
10:52 Breivik: - Everything I've said in the interview is true.
10:53 Breivik breathing deeply as Engh reads from the interrogations.
10:55 Holden asks what is dangerous to explain this now: - You, Breivik. Can not answer help to legitimize what you have done?
10:55 Breivik: - You claim that I really went there to smuggle diamonds. But you have not even bothered to interrogate witnesses.
10:56 Engh: - Have not you any need to defend yourself? Breivik: - It is not my task to shed light on this.
10:57 Breivik says that the Serb was not with him from Liberia to London.
10:58 Breivik says he does not think he used his credit card in Liberia. But have had three outlets in the Ivory Coast. A total of 14,000 Norwegian kroner removed.
10:59 Breivik: - It was an emergency. It was the exchange differences in the two countries. In Elfensbenskysten used the euro, but in Liberia used the U.S. Dollar only.
10:59 He said he therefore had to pull out of Liberia and collect money in the Ivory Coast.
10:59 Do not say anything about the tickets he had to Liberia and London.
11:00 Engh: - Why are you smiling?
11:00 Breivik: - Because you're asking about something you know I'm not going to answer.
11:01 Breivik repeats several times that he will not comment on anything relating to Liberia and London.
11:01 Engh: - We find no payment of accommodation in London on your credit card statements. Only two small outlet 3 of May.
11:01 Breivik: - I was there one or two days, but may have been longer.
11:03 Prosecutors will show an excerpt from the manifesto, which Breivik describes the meeting in London. Here Breivik writes that he participated in the Serb place, because he could not go myself.
11:04 Says London was chosen by the initiator, which Breivik has described as a mentor. But he will not comment now.
11:05 Breivik said earlier today that he probably had too much information in the compendium.
11:06 Breivik says questions from Holden that he met only three people in London, including Serb.
11:08 Engh refers to a police interrogation in which Breivik said that the meeting consisted of Serbian war heroes for 40-50 years. He should have been the youngest participant.
11:09 But in the list of participants in the manifesto is the only one Serb, the person represented Breivik - who lived in Liberia.
11:10 Breivik: - If there is conflicting information, the information in the manifest as a votes. In the interview, it would be careless mistake, because it is based on memory.
11:10 Breivik: - There was a meeting in London. All that stands in the manifest is correct.
11:12 Breivik: - I can say a lot, but I'm not going to do it. I will not give any information about this.
11:13 Engh shows how to manifest Breivik said that during his meeting in London was with the most brilliant political and military strategists in Europe.
11:14 Breivik: - It is pompous written, but the four had great integrity. They are willing to defend their country. For me, there has been an ideological journey, and I did not understand anything then.
11:15 Breivik: - This is written in retrospect. I may have remembered something wrong. But all is correct, although it is written in a special way.
11:16 Breivik: - It is based on a sale principle, but everything seems to vote. Selling a dream when selling ideology.
11:18 Breivik: - It is not my interest to shed light on what happened in London.
11:19 In questioning, talking about a mentor, whom he has named Richard. But he will not comment now.
11:21 Engh refers to police interrogation: - Breivik had a close relationship with Richard. Richard was the person responsible, and wrote the foundation of the 2083 Manifesto.
11:22 Breivik get questions about what it means to be a knight.
11:24 Breivik: - When you are in an independent cell, one must be able to dominate everything, such as logistics. I have never called myself a perfect knight, but tried to reach for those ideals.
11:24 Breivik - I've done it I've wanted, but never called me a perfect knight.
11:26 Reports the use of the nickname Sigurd, named after the Norwegian king. Breivik claim it is one of the best leaders in Norway have had.
11:26 He does not want to say something about the outfit during the meeting in London.
11:29 Engh: - Did you agree on what you should stand for?
11:30 Breivik: - The principles stand in the manifest. The essence was to remove themselves from National Socialism, which we felt was soaked in blood. We had to distance ourselves from the old school.
11:31 It was agreed that we should choose Crusader identity. What unites all Europeans is that we are Christians. And even those not personally Christians, we have this cultural heritage.
11:32 Breivik: - It was not me who suggested this. But I will not say anything about it. He would not say whether it was Knights Templar name was given, but refers to the manifesto, in which it determines.
11:32 Breivik clear answer when he can talk about ideology, but fails to answer questions about events and refer to the compendium.
11:33 Engh: - Is this a good name?
11:33 Breivik: - KT refers to the identity of the Crusader, and it is a good name.
11:37 Engh: - Why could not Richard continue to write the manifesto? Why was this task?
11:38 Breivik: - It's all about helping ..
11:38 Engh: - You write that the other was one of the best strategists in Europe. Why could not they write it?
11:38 Breivik: - I do not want to comment on this now.
11:40 Breivik: - The idea was that there would be a leaderless organization.
11:40 Holden: - You said earlier that some wanted it to be a grassroots organization, while others wanted confrontation. Was there disagreement in London?
11:42 Holden: - How can one simultaneously organize a grassroots movement and a single cell organization?
11:42 Breivik: - There are two different things.
11:42 Breivik: - You discussed a lot in London, but I will not say anything about this.
11:44 From the interview: - When asked why Richard could not write the manifesto itself, Breivik reported that it took a long time, and also that there were disagreements between people in the UK and France.
11:46 He also reported "armchair general principles" as a possible cause. - These can be very difficult to win through, because they are so-called keyboard warriors, and do not have credibility from the fighting.
11:46 Engh: - What kind of credibility you had?
11:47 Breivik: - I did not have the conditions then, but may have been there for 22 July. To give weight to the compendium must be something behind.
11:49 Breivik: - What is true is that many keyboard warriors who have tried, but they have no weight. If you fear death itself, it is difficult to glorify martyrdom. There are few role models.
11:50 Engh: - Why did you just asked to write this manifesto in 2002?
11:51 Breivik: - They did more than me. That means they may not have attached much trust in me.
11:52 Breivik prompted him know about the other person that was asked had written something, but will not answer it.
11:52 Engh ask how Breivik had it for international travel, but will not answer it.
11:53 Breivik: - I had a cell commander. That means I was a foot soldier who was connected with two others. But I will not say anything more about it.
11:54 From the interview: - My life ended when I ordained me to Knights Templar.
11:54 Breivik: - I gave up a life of materials herein things. I focused on other things.
11:55 The court now has to break untill 13:00
13:00 The judges are in place and the right set.
13:01 Breivik has taken the witness stand and District Attorney Inga Bejer Engh takes up again the thread to continue at that Breivik went from London.
13:02 Breivik: - I will not say anything about when I was ordained. But it happened.
13:03 Breivik: - It is not in my interest to shed light on this matter
13:04 Breivik: - My Plan A was to collect the most money to the case. I began to write properly first manifesto in 2006 and 2007.
13:05 Breivik: - I moved home to my mother, where I paid £ 3500 in rent in order to implement the plan quickly. It was cheaper than living alone.
13:06 The prosecutor refers to money transfers, but Breivik would not comment on this. - I assume you have examined all of Liberia.
13:06 He asks why he two risks by transferring money to Liberia. He will not say anything about.
13:07 Engh: - Why did you not Serb?
13:07 Breivik: - It could be too risky. Everything can be tracked.
13:08 Prosecutors wonder he wants everyone just to speculate freely.
13:09 Prosecutors Svein Holden also questions whether there is any information that could potentially Breivik told that could lead to arrests. Breivik will not respond.
13:11 Prosecutors Engh refers to police interrogation in which Breivik has said that money would go to weapons training, but he will not comment on it.
13:12 Engh sums up: - You have had contact with people online, you have been in Liberia, and you have taken money out there. You have also used your card in London.
13:12 Engh: - When you got home you sent £ 40,000 from your own account, instead of using Western Union or some other anonymous solution. Why did you do that?
13:13 He would not comment.
13:13 Prosecutors Holden wonder if Breivik has been the victim of Nigerian scams. Breivik denies this.
13:14 The prosecutor asked why he wanted to engage politically after Liberia took.
13:15 Breivik: - I have had a hope of democracy. If the Norwegian press had changed, and ended with campaign journalism, had probably not 22 July happened.
13:15 Breivik seems more confident. The times he chooses to answer the questions, he answers without a second thought.
13:15 Engh: - You had been in London and Liberia and met radical, and yet you did not address this policy work. You had several posts after the London trip than before.
13:16 Breivik: - As I have said, I had started the political race before I left and wanted to see how far I could go.
13:17 Breivik prompted a message of support he has given to the U.S. on Fpus online forums, and what the Serb would think about it.
13:18 Breivik says he believes European humanistic thinking, compared with the United States who think on their own interests.
13:19 Prosecutors cite the manifesto: April / May 2002: "Loss of faith in democracy, to stop the Progress Party." Breivik admits that he may be kidding dates.
13:20 18. March 2002 bought Breivik diamond equipment in Church Road. In early April he called for various diamond stores in London.
13:21 Breivik: - It was to strengthen the cover story. Likewise, I contacted UNICEF, in the part of tire story.
13:22 When Breivik came home, he told the story of the diamond more: - It was a robber story.
13:23 Breivik: - I had told it to a friend, and I think he said it to others. Then I had to talk about it, to corroborate the story.
13:23 Breivik - I had promised not to say why I went to Liberia. It was important to keep that promise.
13:24 After arriving in Norway again, he bought spectroscopically, and it is found several caller tries to diamond company after returning home.
13:25 Breivik - I felt that do not cover the story was good enough, besides I considered to go back down.
13:25 He has repeatedly asked questions about tire story.
13:26 Saying he feared being arrested.
13:26 Breivik smile when the prosecutor Engh presses him on purchases made in connection with the cover story. Looks so away before he responds.
13:27 Breivik: - If anyone knew that I went down to visit Serb, I could end up on lists. UNICEF-cover story could easily have been revealed.
13:28 Breivik swallow several times when the prosecutor read from a police statement he has made.
13:30 Breivik said he was not afraid of punishment for diamond smuggling by telling the story deck.
13:31 Breivik tell someone he was in contact with online, who said he was considering suicide.
13:31 Breivik seems enthusiastic as he talks about when he talked about the cover story of an unknown. Taking some small pauses as he thinks.
13:32 Breivik: - I told him my story deck that I had been in Liberia for buying diamonds. I urged him to go to Africa to see their problems in different light.
13:32 Breivik said he was not afraid of punishment for diamond smuggling by telling the story deck.
13:33 Prosecutors: - You want more people to follow you? Is it not important that they understand what kind of network we are talking about?
13:33 Breivik: - I'm just a foot soldier in a one-man cell. But I stand at all in the manifesto.
13:33 Prosecutors will also demonstrate the manifest.
13:34 Prosecutors Engh now confronts Breivik with parts from his compendium.
13:35 Breivik explains about an "open meeting" in the Baltics, where 25-30 people will have participated. He denies that it is comparable to the meeting in London.
13:37 In the compendium Breivik writes that the meetings in the Baltics was a form of exercise for cell commanders.
13:37 Breivik will not answer questions about what kind of training we are talking about.
13:39 After the prosecutor has read out an excerpt of the compendium in which he comes in on what kind of people he met, would not comment on the meeting Breivik any closer.
13:40 Breivik said in the lecture notes that he was impressed with the screening process in advance of the meeting, but he will not elaborate on this question from the prosecutor Holden.
13:40 Breivik: - I was in the Baltic region twice.
13:42 Engh: - You were in Lithuania in January 2004. You were there for about 25 hours. You created an account, among other things, and put a check. This says Breivik votes.
13:43 Engh: - If the meeting had been to Copenhagen, you had created an account there then?
13:44 Breivik: - I think Estonia and Lithuania were not included in the EU, then. So then I killed two birds with one stone, and had created an account while I was there at the meeting.
13:44 Breivik - I only needed one of the accounts, but I created both for safety's sake.
13:44 The prosecutor refers to the trip to Estonia, in April 2004. He was in Estonia in 19 hours.
13:45 Engh: - How did you have treningssamllingen and number of the bank on these short trips?
13:45 Breivik: - I will not comment on it.
13:46 Engh: - Why do you have mentioned these things in the manifesto if you do not want to talk about it?
13:46 Breivik: - It is a good observation. I probably should not have written about it in the manifest.
13:47 Breivik smiles wide while the prosecutor will find out information from an interrogation.
13:49 Breivik: - I am affiliated with two others in Norway. A cell Commander is a foot soldier who is connected with two others.
13:50 Breivik go to questions from Holden back on his earlier statement had said that he was "cell commander" when he came back from London.
13:50 Breivik: - I must have a slip of the tongue when I said it.
13:51 Holden and Breivik now discussing the importance of cell commander. - What is relevant is that I'm nationalist military. Do not use too much energy on this.
13:51 Breivik: - I have not read the compendium of two years.
13:52 Holden: - Do you experience this as confusing?
13:52 Breivik seems uncomfortable, smiling and looking down on questions from Holden regarding the importance of "cell commander".
13:52 Breivik: - Yes, I understand that it can be confusing.
13:52 The Court has taken break to 14.10.
14:05 There are several vacant seats in Courtroom 250 in the day compared to earlier this week. Both seats for the press and their families are empty.
14:14 Breivik is led into the witness box and the court are set for the final part.
14:15 Prosecutors Engh says she does not have many questions left now, and nearing the end of the block. But ask Breivik: - What is the Knights Templar Network today?
14:16 Breivik: - It is an organization of nationalists and Christians, as al-Qaeda are Muslims.
14:17 Breivik: - All militant nationalists have much to learn from al-Qaeda. Although we want different things, they have had success with the methods. We will have a European version.
14:18 Breivik has several times visited the al-Qaeda during his explanation. Tuesday, he said under his reading of a pre-written script that military nationalists had much to be of them. Although he had among other things, learned about the martyrdom gift.
14:18 Breivik: - Has the historic role models, heroes and methodological idologiske rollemodelller.
14:19 Breivik: - As I said there have been few role models in the past few decades, then you have to go outside the framework. Then you have to be inspired by the Islamists, even if we are anti-Islamists.
14:19 Engh asks Breivik talk about martyrdom.
14:20 Breivik: - Many of us believe in an afterlife, because we are Christians. The problem of the Red Army was that they did not believe in an afterlife. It was worse for them to sacrifice their lives.
14:21 Breivik: - If one embraces death, and is willing to sacrifice your life, you become a better activist. I did not expect to survive 22 July. Had I feared death, I had not been enough action.
14:21 He will not say what he thinks the Church will think about his actions.
14:23 Breivik: - As long as the present church is governed by pacifists, never my actions to be recognized. I want a more military church.
14:24 Breivik: - Self-defense is legitimate, and to help stop the Islamization is self-defense. Therefore, church leaders support those who fight against the de-Christianization of Europe.
14:24 The experts pay close attention to this part of Breivik's explanation. More make notes.
14:25 Breivik says the pacifist leaders of the Church must take much responsibility for the de-Christianization of Europe.
14:26 He says it is unrealistic for him to be recognized by church leaders as it is today.
14:27 Breivik: - There are only two fair outcome of this case, an acquittal or the death penalty.
14:28 Engh: What had you thought that Norway had introduced the death penalty?
14:28 Breivik: - I do not want to be sentenced to death, but had respected it. 21 years in prison is pathetic.
14:29 He will be asked what he thinks about the reactions.
14:29 Breivik stated that he thought it was silly that Indrebø was removed as associate judge in the case. Indrebø expressed 23 July that the death penalty was appropriate for the offender.
14:30 Breivik: - This is not about me. It's all about Norway.
14:30 Breivik: - It is not about the AUF or its ministries. It is about Norway's and Europe's future.
14:31 Breivik: - I have dreaded this lawsuit. I respect that you have a strategy, but it's not in my interest.
14:32 Breivik told Engh: - It is not my interest that more people are arrested. I am glad that you have not chosen to look into the 8000 I sent to the compendium. For one of the ones I tried sending mail to is KT network.
14:32 Breivik tried to send the compendium to 8000 e-mail addresses, but below 1000 should have come forward.
14:33 Engh: - You sent it to the KT Network? Breivik: - Yes, or tried to send it.
14:34 Engh: - Is KT a court?
14:34 Breivik: - It will sound absurd to call the network before a court. We are a network of militant nationalists, neither more nor less. But we represent indigenous peoples in Europe.
14:36 Breivik stakato spoke as he answered questions about the KT network is a court, but went on to talk normal when he went on to accuse the prosecutor wanted to make fun of him.
14:36 Prosecutors want to hear more about the status of the Knights Templar today. What has become of those from London?
14:37 Breivik: - I can not count. I only know about the two from Norway.
14:38 Breivik says that he Utøya told the police that there are two other cells, which will strike soon. He says that it is wrong that he has said that there was another who was behind the bomb in Oslo.
14:39 Breivik are confronted with the fact that he questioned the Advertise saying that the two other cells would kill 300 people. - I considered it unlikely that I survived both ministries and Utøya, and I said things I should not have said.
14:40 Breivik: - But what I said is true. They can strike at any time.
14:41 When Breivik said that the two other alleged cells could turn to in Oslo, so he is entitled to the prosecutor Engh.
14:42 Brievik said in the first interviews that if Norway introduced the death penalty and waterboarding would he reveal Thurs the 2nd cells. But he rejects this in court, saying that he would never have ratted on the cells.
14:43 He will also have guessed that there were a total of 80 cells in Europe.
14:44 The prosecutor refers to the manifesto which Breivik estimates there are between 15 and 80 cells in Europe. But admitting that there is an assumption.
14:46 Breivik seems ukomfertabel while prosecutors turn up after the interview, but smiles as he answers: - I am used to it.
14:47 Holden refers to questioning 23 July, which Breivik also gave maximum 80 cells. - Are we back to "think of a figure", huh?
14:47 Breivik: - I can not give you any better answer to this.
14:48 Prosecutors Engh: - To call in from Utøya and call you Commander. But now you say you are a foot soldier?
14:49 Breivik: - This is not important. But when you are connected to a network and want to help the organization grow. Then you can use a pompous presentation to sell the message.
14:49 Breivik: - You focus only on the ridicule.
14:50 Breivik: - It is important for me to reveal that I am just one of many. By using this title I conveyed that there are more. It was not a lie, but it is more accurate to say that I was a cell commander.
14:51 Engh breivik the prosecutor when she asks in-depth: - I prefer it better when you accused me as a child.
14:52 Breivik: - The title and his uniform was just something I used to sell his message across.
14:54 Breivik defender Vibeke Hein Bæra start questioning by Breivik on this subject.
14:55 Bæra ask Breivik explain more about the 8,000 facebook contacts of his. He said he was surprised that no one has looked closely at them.
14:56 Breivik - I might have 20 email accounts. Bæra says there is talk of 31
14:57 Breivik: - What I've admitted I've masked the ip address's to send anonymous emails. It was important to hide it.
14:58 Bæra: - Only ten of these email addresses are identified.
14:58 Attorney Geir Lippestad takes over the questioning of his client.
14:59 Defender Lippestad: - You have repeatedly said that it was a glossy picture you portrayed, both manifest and in interviews. Once you understood that the description you gave was pompous?
14:59 Breivik: - I have understood all the time.
14:59 Lippestad: - Can you say what you mean by glossy picture?
15:00 Breivik: - It means to convey something in a pompous manner. I have no better explanation.
15:01 Lippestad refers to an interrogation about the KT-2 network November: - I have conveyed a glossy picture of the Knights Templar. But in practice, KT being established.
15:02 Breivik: - It was very ambitious, and the work takes a very long time. This is just the beginning.
15:02 Lippestad dishes date to 18 October for this hearing.
15:03 It was after this that the first expert report came, and after that the media ban was lifted.
15:04 Lippestad will apparently have emerged that Breivik realized early on that his presentation was pompous.
15:06 Lippestad: - In the same interview you said that the KT that the organization probably was changed after 22 July, and that you do not have an overview of the organization today.
15:07 Breivik respond calmly, almost without facial movement on defense asks voters' narrow. He turns to face prosecution when he responds.
15:07 Breivik: - Because of the intelligence services, it is impossible to do anything other than the one-man cells today.
15:08 Lippestad: - Have you told the truth in the police interrogation?
15:08 Breivik: - Everything I've said is correct. But there is much I do not want to talk about.
15:09 Breivik: - I can provide approximately 98 percent of all the information. I made a deal with the police, where I said that I'm going to withhold two percent. I will do everything I can to avoid a further arrests.
15:10 Lippestad: - You have worked as a salesman and dealer. What qualities are important in these roles?
15:10 Breivik: - You must have a message to sell.
15:11 Lippestad: - Have you tried to get a negotiating position?
15:11 Breivik: - Yes. I told it like it was, that I could say 98 percent. The police accepted it.
15:12 Lippestad: - Was it important for you to say that you were more to give you a good negotiating position?
15:12 Breivik: - That I went for a magnificent presentation, was to sell the message.
15:12 Lippestad: - What were you concerned with 23 July, in the interrogation?
15:13 Breivik - I was keen to make an appointment with the police.
15:13 Lippestad refers to the requirement list 2 and list of requirements 1
15:15 Requirements List 2: PC on the cell with word and printer. No need to network, but wikipedia. Use of the KT-uniform in court. Front court with the press. Atonement with the fewest Muslims.
15:15 Lippestad: - Were you pompous to these requirements granted?
15:15 Breivik: - No.
15:16 Breivik got the PC, and says that it was impossible for police to grant the other requirements.
15:16 Aid lawyers will now have the opportunity to ask questions.
15:16 Breivik are asked about their relationship to the Church.
15:17 Breivik: - I am a member of the state church and confess myself to the Christian faith.
15:18 The coordinating counsel Siv Hallgren who first asks on behalf of aid lawyers.
15:18 Breivik: - We want a Christian heritage. I believe in God, but is not particularly religious. I believe in an afterlife. Beyond that, I have no comment.
15:20 Breivik: - There was an evaluation of China why Europe has been successful. The conclusion is: Due to Christianity. I read the whole Bible. I did in elementary school before Labor abolished the Christian teaching.
15:20 Breivik referred to the Battle of Vienna in 1683, where the Ottoman Empire was halted in their advance through Europe.
15:21 Breivik: - I am willing to consider also the non-ethnic Norwegian and my brothers and sister, as long as they support our cause.
15:22 Breivik: - I belong to the Norwegians, and we are an ethnic group. Samer is not ethnic Norwegians, they are Sami. I acknowledge Saami as an indigenous people, in line with the Norwegians.
15:23 Breivik: - Sami living in Lapland, and some of them live in Oslo. I have no opinion on it.
15:23 Breivik: - I have been in large parts of Norway, but not in Bergen and Finnmark.
15:24 Breivik: - I love Oslo.
15:26 Defender Geir Lippestad warns aid lawyers to act as a form of help prosecutors.
15:27 After aid lawyers are the experts the opportunity to ask questions.
15:30 Breivik explains a legal clause of the manifesto, which provides the opportunity to spread the manifesto because of the unacceptable consequences.
15:32 Lawyer Larsen question about this clause: - Describes the KT-like fiction here?
15:32 Breivik: - Had the clause been here, it would be illegal to spread the Manifesto.
15:32 Larsen: - Responds not that no one else has acted KT after you were arrested, or have been highlighted as KT-knights?
15:33 Breivik: - I have limited access to the media. There have been several right wing attacks after 22 July, but I have not been verified whether it is associated with KT.
15:33 He refers to an alleged action in Italy.
15:35 The court administrator requesting counsel Yvonne Larsen Mette not repeat the question asked earlier.
15:35 Larsen: - Are there any aspects of Norwegian culture that supports 22 July-action?
15:36 Breivik: - It is a good question. Honorary codices were destroyed by our Labor after World War II. Many men in Norway are too feminine and lacking backbone.
15:37 Breivik says that when it comes to method of operation, the al-Qaeda that have inspired him the most. When it comes to ideology, he says that he is inspired by all the authors who support violence.
15:37 Breivik - I fought for Norwegian rights and europeeiske rights. Al-Qaeda wants to invade, it's not us. We are isolationists.
15:37 Larsen: - Has your plan been successful?
15:38 Breivik: - It is tragic that you have to carry something so horrible to be heard and to change society. That one will be censored and ridiculed. In one way it is cruel, on the other hand, it was necessary.
15:39 Breivik: - I had started a witch hunt for moderate conservative culture. It will contribute to increased polarization and radicalization. Better results than expected.
15:39 It says Breivik much the same, he said during his speech yesterday morning.
15:40 Breivik: - After 11 September, many Muslims shocked. But then the threshold lowered.
15:40 Breivik: - We would conflict - before we end up as a minority in society.
15:41 Also, this example used Breivik yesterday.
15:41 Breivik: - I do not hate the Labour Party. I am willing to forgive them, and many others. I am committed to act.
15:42 Breivik prompted when hate started.
15:42 Breivik: - I would not call it hate, but it started when I was 15 Then I saw the injustice. Labor has been the leading party since the war.
15:43 Breivik: - The key to Norway's future lies here.
15:43 Breivik: - I am tired. Can I have a question about this tomorrow?
15:44 Breivik asks how he can use human rights to defend 22 7.
15:44 Breivik: - It is mainly a principle of self-defense.
15:45 If confronted with the KT network is too small to be able to claim their rights under international law.
15:46 Breivik: - I have a duty to prevent my ethnic group is destroyed. It comes under human rights. He refers to the manifest.
15:47 Breivik: - I have a legitimate right to prevent this.
15:49 Breivik: - It is ridiculous to conduct a witch hunt Fjordman. He is against violence.
15:50 Breivik respond clearly to questions from counsel Frode Elgesem but biting her lower lip as he pauses before he responds.
15:50 He is now being asked about the writers who have inspired him, and refers to the compendium.
15:50 The experts did not want to question today. The judges will now have the opportunity.
15:51 Breivik: - I am anti-Nazi.
15:52 Legdommer Ernst Henning Eielsen Breivik asked to explain what he meant by that the last well-functioning democracy in Europe was in the interwar period. Breivik replied that he is an anti-Nazi.
15:53 Eielsen: - Are you against immigration in general, or just Islam?
15:54 Breivik: - A national socialist means that all non-Norwegians are going out. I am much more liberal. I can accept a small percentage, but not that Norwegians will be a minority.
15:54 Breivik: - I can accept eg 2 per cent. But Norway will not become a dumping ground, as it is today.
15:55 Judge Rune Lyng asks Breivik explain the word militant.
15:55 Heather: - What makes a nationalist militant?
15:55 Breivik: - Militant means is an activist, or that you sympathize with them.
15:56 Breivik: - It is a matter of armed resistance.
15:56 Heather: - Ultra-nationalist. How do you define it?
15:57 Breivik: - In a country where there is a big difference between an ordinary nationalist and someone who is more right. When you show the difference. Fjordman is a nationalist, and I am an ultra-nationalist.
15:57 Breivik: - He supports democracy and against violence. I am a militant.
15:57 Breivik: - I am also ultra conservative.
15:58 Judge Wenche Elisabeth Arntzen Breivik please explain what he meant by the legal clause in the manifesto he was asked earlier Wednesday.
15:59 Breivik: - When I was going to send out the compendium to 8000 people, I was afraid that some of them fail to spread it further because they were afraid of the consequences.
16:00 Breivik: - so I took with this clause. You can just ignore this, because it is only included for people to spread it without fear of consequences. I have the same clause in the video.
16:01 The court is adjourned and set again at 09 on Thursday. Breivik will continue his testimony.
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